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Re: "You're not going to learn how to program in BASIC any more"

To: REALbasic NUG <realbasic-nug at lists dot realsoftware dot com>
Subject: Re: "You're not going to learn how to program in BASIC any more"
From: Alex Lindsay <alindsay at mac dot com>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:32:18 -0500
Delivered-to: realbasic-nug at lists dot realsoftware dot com
References: <20050930142614 dot C65A0DDD465 at lists dot realsoftware dot com> <433D5E28 dot 1090302 at wanadoo dot fr>
I do not think so.

The more clear and clean the manuals are, the better 'usable' the computer language will be understoud (?).

In clear, if the language follows what you said and the manuals are bad, dark, obtuse, full of errors and so on, who will use it ?

The difference will be made on the documentation !
I agree that documentation of the language is very important. My point is that when there are many syntactical ways of accomplishing the exact same thing, it becomes very hard share code in larger groups. A simple examples from C++ where arrays are pointers, pointers may have arithmatic on them, etc. C++ is very powerful, but has too many valid syntaxes to accomplish the same exact machine code. And don't even get me started on preprocessors like "#define BEGIN {" #define END }" type of crap. All this does is allow personal style to make the code look almost like a different languate. This is may work for a single person, but falls apart for a group project.

int array[10];

is the same as

int *array = new int[10];


and

array[x] = x;

or

*(array + 10) = x;

and an integer array is indistinguishable from a pointer to an array.


The problem is... AppleScript can be programmed using "Script Editor", "Terminal", "XCode". Isn't it enought ? (in proper context and IDE)


The real trouble with AppleScript is that software provider (Apple for AppleWorks for example) does not gives proper documentation...


Do you know how to works with AppleScript and XML ?

Do you know how to create - using AppleScript - a new document in TextEdit ?

Do you know, still using AppleScript, how to select (highlight) some characters (or words or paragraphs) in TextEdit ?

This is my point about proper context and IDE. The context for me is an environment providing "objects" for XML, etc. without having to invoke other applications, as these application may all have their own rules, naming convention, etc.



To be completely honest, (I was an Apple Employee when AppleScript was born so many years ago) I use AppleScript to make some small, simple things (some of them I do not even know how I could do using REALbasic), and sometimes I need - for some other small and simple things - to use REALbasic (because I do not know how I can do it using AppleScript).
Agreed, the documentation for AppleScript is abysmal.

This brings up a good point, since I am still on 10.3.x, I haven't used Automator. Could Automator be the beginning of a simple children's programming tool if someone provided a toolkit application for it? At least to teach problem solving, etc.


Thank you,

Alex Lindsay
On Sep 30, 2005, at 10:47 AM, Emile Schwarz wrote:



realbasic-nug-request at lists dot realsoftware dot com wrote:
Subject: Re: "You're not going to learn how to program in BASIC any more"
From: Alex Lindsay <alindsay at mac dot com>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:16:13 -0500
I have always thought that the more flexible and forgiving the syntax, the better the language is for learning. I also believe that flexible syntax is often a bane as the complexity of a project increases, especially when more than one developer works on the project.
I do not think so.

The more clear and clean the manuals are, the better 'usable' the computer language will be understoud (?).

In clear, if the language follows what you said and the manuals are bad, dark, obtuse, full of errors and so on, who will use it ?

The difference will be made on the documentation !

I have also thought that one of the more intuitive languages out there is AppleScript. Almost anyone reading AppleScript for the first time can understand it. Unfortunate, AppleScript is used mostly for automating other applications, and how those applications respond often muddies the waters! I think that AppleScript would make a great teaching language if the proper context and IDE were provided.


The problem is... AppleScript can be programmed using "Script Editor", "Terminal", "XCode". Isn't it enought ? (in proper context and IDE)


The real trouble with AppleScript is that software provider (Apple for AppleWorks for example) does not gives proper documentation...


Do you know how to works with AppleScript and XML ?

Do you know how to create - using AppleScript - a new document in TextEdit ?

Do you know, still using AppleScript, how to select (highlight) some characters (or words or paragraphs) in TextEdit ?


To be completely honest, (I was an Apple Employee when AppleScript was born so many years ago) I use AppleScript to make some small, simple things (some of them I do not even know how I could do using REALbasic), and sometimes I need - for some other small and simple things - to use REALbasic (because I do not know how I can do it using AppleScript).


Syntax ?
Syntax checker under AppleScript, the Compiler under REALbasic... Word spelling ? Same answer as syntax...

Some problems have a simple answer. But if you get a cryptic error message, you will pull your hair with both hands and scrap everything before getting an answer...

Back to basics: let the children understand what (s)he can do with a computer and (s)he want to program right now !

Cheers,

Emile

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