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[OT] GL Plugin Worthyness (Was: Maybe a way to register global constants

To: REALbasic Plugins <realbasic-plugins at lists dot realsoftware dot com>
Subject: [OT] GL Plugin Worthyness (Was: Maybe a way to register global constants?)
From: Frank Condello <developer at chaoticbox dot com>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:18:19 -0500
Delivered-to: realbasic-plugins at lists dot realsoftware dot com
References: <3A710B42-C352-4D33-9B91-F04FC553B604 at sqlabs dot net> <CAC84461-C87A-4EEB-8388-73CEF234F8C8 at realsoftware dot com> <71CCFA99-4B1E-49C8-A846-03BB2AB99015 at sqlabs dot net> <95344E36-E288-4106-9D3B-AA1098E00369 at elfdata dot com> <F1DAF93C-DE25-4B09-BA4E-E5AE38BD36C8 at chaoticbox dot com> <8F577F49-EEB4-4605-A99E-DAB716BBB751 at elfdata dot com>
On 15-Dec-05, at 8:23 PM, Theodore H. Smith wrote:

Also, OpenGl doesn't offer you everything you need. You'll still some other code for things like space culling (Where objects that can't be seen don't get drawn). And then there's collision detection. OpenGL gives you no ability for collision detection... So you need to write a simple and extensible, yet fast framework for collision detection.

Unless you are an OpenGL and game master I wouldn't really bother making an OpenGL plugin.

It's clear you've misunderstood the intent and target audience of Marco's plugin. The plugin provides a convenient way to access the OpenGL API in RB, and is meant for current OpenGL programers or people wanting/willing to learn. If Marco called it "UberGameEnginePlugin" then your arguments would have merit, but as I see it, he's delivering a product as advertised.

Well...

It'll be good for people making demos or very simple games.

OpenGL just does what you tell it to do - simple stuff is, well, simple ;) but in the right hands it can do million-polygon-per-pixel- everything. I don't see how this plugin limits you to the latter, it just exposes the API and includes some convenience functions.

Anyone smart enough to make a good game or sophisticated 3d app, would probably be smart enough to write their own plugin in the first place though.

Well sure, but if something already exists that can save you the time and grief then I don't see a problem using it. Many AAA commercial games (the majority in fact) are made on the backs of other people's work.

I thought Quake3 used vertex arrays and did most of the transformations in the CPU, but I could be wrong.

Vertex arrays are a prerequisite if you want decent performance - there are several ways to batch geometry nowadays, and the original vanilla vertex array API is generally at the bottom of the list (though still useful). I haven't really dug through the Quake 3 source but I'm certain it uses hardware transforms for (at least) the final vertex transformations. If it's anything like GLQuake1/2 it'll maintain its own transformation matrices and hand them off to OpenGL along with model space vertex data. GL will then try to offload the world space projection transforms to the GPU.

But, I'm still not sure why this matters in respect to this plugin. You can always run vertexes through your own transforms on the CPU if you really want to. OpenGL neither helps nor prevents that, and neither will this plugin.

I can remember writing a simple 3d (4x4x4) tic tac toe game. It actually ran slower than quake3 did! Despite being much simpler in terms of graphics and game engine. Well, it wasn't always slower. But those circles really slowed things down. You know tic tac toe uses circles and crosses. Enough circles and the display slowed to a crawl.

Well, that's not too surprising if you did the typically newbie things and drew it all in immediate mode, with way-overkill tessellation on the circles. Also keep in mind that GL lighting will slow you down as well, perhaps to a crawl depending on the number of lights and hardware (Quake 3 does it's own lighting, and it's mostly pre-computed).

We're going in circles though - take the plugin for what it is (or don't). I'm defending Marco's work but I admit I don't have a real need for it right now. 4 months ago may have been a different story...

Frank.
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